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Thread: Controversial Atomic Experiment - CERN

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    Default Controversial Atomic Experiment - CERN


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    An article that would obviously draw attention with a sensationalist titled link...

    Countdown to doomsday
    Flicking the switch on 'world's largest experiment' could annihilate Earth: critics.


    I thought I'd share the article.
    Scientists say there's nothing to fear from atom-smasher

    By Douglas Birch, The Associated Press
    MEYRIN, Switzerland -

    The most powerful atom-smasher ever built could make some bizarre discoveries, such as invisible matter or extra dimensions in space, after it is switched on in August.

    But some critics fear the Large Hadron Collider could exceed physicists' wildest conjectures: Will it spawn a black hole that could swallow Earth? Or spit out particles that could turn the planet into a hot dead clump?

    Ridiculous, say scientists at the European Organization for Nuclear Research, known by its French initials CERN - some of whom have been working for a generation on the $5.8-billion collider, or LHC.
    "Obviously, the world will not end when the LHC switches on," said project leader Lyn Evans.

    David Francis, a physicist on the collider's huge ATLAS particle detector, smiled when asked whether he worried about black holes and hypothetical killer particles known as strangelets.

    "If I thought that this was going to happen, I would be well away from here," he said.

    The collider basically consists of a ring of super-cooled magnets 27 kilometres in circumference attached to huge barrel-shaped detectors. The ring, which straddles the French and Swiss border, is buried 100 metres underground.

    The machine, which has been called the largest scientific experiment in history, isn't expected to begin test runs until August, and ramping up to full power could take months. But once it is working, it is expected to produce some startling findings.

    Scientists plan to hunt for signs of the invisible "dark matter" and "dark energy" that make up more than 96 per cent of the universe, and hope to glimpse the elusive Higgs boson, a so-far undiscovered particle thought to give matter its mass.

    The collider could find evidence of extra dimensions, a boon for superstring theory, which holds that quarks, the particles that make up atoms, are infinitesimal vibrating strings.

    The theory could resolve many of physics' unanswered questions, but requires about 10 dimensions - far more than the three spatial dimensions our senses experience.

    The safety of the collider, which will generate energies seven times higher than its most powerful rival, at Fermilab near Chicago, has been debated for years. The physicist Martin Rees has estimated the chance of an accelerator producing a global catastrophe at one in 50 million - long odds, to be sure, but about the same as winning some lotteries.

    By contrast, a CERN team this month issued a report concluding that there is "no conceivable danger" of a cataclysmic event. The report essentially confirmed the findings of a 2003 CERN safety report, and a panel of five prominent scientists not affiliated with CERN, including one Nobel laureate, endorsed its conclusions.

    Critics of the LHC filed a lawsuit in a Hawaiian court in March seeking to block its startup, alleging that there was "a significant risk that ... operation of the Collider may have unintended consequences which could ultimately result in the destruction of our planet."

    One of the plaintiffs, Walter L. Wagner, a physicist and lawyer, said Wednesday CERN's safety report, released June 20, "has several major flaws," and his views on the risks of using the particle accelerator had not changed.

    On Tuesday, U.S. Justice Department lawyers representing the Department of Energy and the National Science Foundation filed a motion to dismiss the case.

    The two agencies have contributed $531 million to building the collider, and the NSF has agreed to pay $87 million of its annual operating costs. Hundreds of American scientists will participate in the research.

    The lawyers called the plaintiffs' allegations "extraordinarily speculative," and said "there is no basis for any conceivable threat" from black holes or other objects the LHC might produce. A hearing on the motion is expected in late July or August.

    In rebutting doomsday scenarios, CERN scientists point out that cosmic rays have been bombarding Earth, and triggering collisions similar to those planned for the collider, since the solar system formed 4.5 billion years ago.
    And so far, Earth has survived.

    "The LHC is only going to reproduce what nature does every second, what it has been doing for billions of years," said John Ellis, a British theoretical physicist at CERN.

    Critics like Wagner have said the collisions caused by accelerators could be more hazardous than those of cosmic rays.

    Both may produce micro black holes, subatomic versions of cosmic black holes - collapsed stars whose gravity fields are so powerful that they can suck in planets and other stars.

    But micro black holes produced by cosmic ray collisions would likely be travelling so fast they would pass harmlessly through Earth.

    Micro black holes produced by a collider, the skeptics theorize, would move more slowly and might be trapped inside Earth's gravitational field - and eventually threaten the planet.

    Ellis said doomsayers assume that the collider will create micro black holes in the first place, which he called unlikely. And even if they appeared, he said, they would instantly evaporate, as predicted by the British physicist Stephen Hawking.

    As for strangelets, CERN scientists point out that they have never been proven to exist. They said that even if these particles formed inside the Collider they would quickly break down.

    When the LHC is finally at full power, two beams of protons will race around the huge ring 11,000 times a second in opposite directions. They will travel in two tubes about the width of fire hoses, speeding through a vacuum that is colder and emptier than outer space.

    Their trajectory will be curved by super-cooled magnets - to guide the beams around the rings and prevent the packets of protons from cutting through the surrounding magnets like a blowtorch.

    The paths of these beams will cross, and a few of the protons in them will collide, at a series of cylindrical detectors along the ring. The two largest detectors are essentially huge digital cameras, each weighing thousands of tonnes, capable of taking millions of snapshots a second.

    Each year the detectors will generate 15 petabytes of data, the equivalent of a stack of CDs 20 kilometres tall. The data will require a high-speed global network of computers for analysis.

    Wagner and others filed a lawsuit to halt operation of the Relativistic Heavy Ion Collider, or RHIC, at the Brookhaven National Laboratory in New York state in 1999. The courts dismissed the suit.

    The leafy campus of CERN, a short drive from the shores of Lake Geneva, hardly seems like ground zero for doomsday. And locals don't seem overly concerned. Thousands attended an open house here this spring.

    "There is a huge army of scientists who know what they are talking about and are sleeping quite soundly as far as concerns the LHC," said project leader Evans.
    Wait a minute... Am I mistaken or did Dan Browne talk about this in his fictional book Angels and Demons. It sounds familiar... "CERN... The collider basically consists of a ring of super-cooled magnets 27 kilometres in circumference attached to huge barrel-shaped detectors. The ring, which straddles the French and Swiss border, is buried 100 metres underground."
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    Thanks for that, Celtaur. I've been following this story in the news, pretty far out. It reminds me, in a way of that huge machine they build in the movie, Contact. I must say, God bless the Swiss, I lived there for years and they are a fine example of a realistic society who spends time and money researching things other than military weaponry. If they can develop and build a machine like that with $531 million, just imagine what the trillions of dollars which went into the Iraq war could have done. It's such a foolish irony that the U.S. went there to steal the oil and the war ended up costing more than it probably would have to develop an engine which needs no fuel, for example, thus alleviating the need for oil at all. I wouldn't worry too much about this device that the Swiss have come up with. After all if I were an extraterrestrial intelligence, far superior to mankind and I wished to contact them with information which would be vital in saving their Earth, say for example, radical new technology which previously only appeared in the imagination of Sci-fi writers, I sure wouldn't be contacting Mr. Bush with the info! I think the Swiss are onto something.
    Mohandas

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    Quote Originally Posted by Celtaur
    Wait a minute... Am I mistaken or did Dan Browne talk about this in his fictional book Angels and Demons. It sounds familiar... "CERN... The collider basically consists of a ring of super-cooled magnets 27 kilometres in circumference attached to huge barrel-shaped detectors. The ring, which straddles the French and Swiss border, is buried 100 metres underground."
    I believe this IS what he talked about in his book.. But i doubt all the anti matter bomb rubbish.. We know better than to fully believe an author who makes his living on stories based on conjecture of what could (have) happen(ed)... Sci Fi at it's best. I wonder if his book "Da Vinci Code" would qualify for a new genre... Eso Fi.. (esoteric fiction) LOL

    Also, on the LAC, I doubt that it could be such a bad thing at all. Some scientists have devoted their entire lives to this project and I don't believe that the level-headed Swiss would have started such an expensive project if they thought it had potential for world destruction..

    Who knows? The LAC might actually give Science an opportunity to catch up with what the Esoterics have known all along.. It could be a learning opportunity. And learning is the only option we really have, actually.

    I hope this goes well for the sake of all mankind.

    Namaste

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    Does anyone have more information on the subject?

    I just did a search and found this article from CERN, as well as this related article.
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    I've been watching this story over the last few months, too. Very interesting stuff, indeed. Here's some info I came across:

    http://public.web.cern.ch/public/en/LHC/LHC-en.html

    http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/20...achenbach-text

    Just to give everyone an idea of how big this thing is, here's a pic from the Nat'l Geo site:

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    I don't want to limit my expression of how interesting it is: I'm excited.

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    I've just come across a new article discussing the matter I thought would be nice to share. It seems to be popping up in the news more these days as we get closer to the date the experiment will be happening.

    Giant atom-smashing experiment could alter our understanding of the universe




    By Sean Patrick Sullivan, The Canadian Press

    Canadian scientists at the forefront of the world's largest science experiment say discoveries made by a giant atom-smasher now whirring deep under European soil could radically alter our understanding of the universe.

    In experiments beginning next month, the $10-billion Large Hadron Collider will re-create what happened in the split second after the Big Bang, mind-bending science that may shatter existing theories of physics and prompt the discovery of new particles and unknown dimensions.

    It's also designed to prove the existence of the theoretical Higgs boson, once dubbed the God particle, that is theorized to give mass to everything in the universe. The particle is key to the standard model of physics, yet has never been observed.

    The first test-runs to circulate a beam in the collider begin on Sept. 10, leading to the first collisions in late October and early November.

    Nigel Lockyer, director of Canada's TRIUMF national particle and nuclear physics laboratory at the University of British Columbia, said the endeavour could also produce tiny black holes and shed light on the existence of dark energy and dark matter.

    "We're on the edge of a major breakthrough in understanding the universe," Lockyer said in an interview at TRIUMF's sprawling compound at the university.

    This breakthrough may come from this massive experiment 100 metres under the French-Swiss border, where the particle accelerator essentially lets scientists smash parts of atoms together at blinding speed and study the resulting mess.

    The world's largest scientific instrument will use unprecedented amounts of energy to shoot two clouds of protons, with trillions of the particles in each cloud, around a 27-kilometre long circular tube.

    The clouds collide at almost the speed of light, blowing the protons to smithereens and - ideally - offering a treasure trove of discoveries.

    "We'll know what's out there. We'll know what to do for the rest of our lives," said Isabel Trigger, lead scientist for TRIUMF's contribution to the project.

    Canadian researchers built components for part of the project. ATLAS is a soda-can-shaped detector that's roughly half a football field long and weighs 7,000 tonnes.

    It will analyze the aftermath of the particle collisions and then ship data out to 10 labs worldwide, including TRIUMF, for years of analysis.

    Five university sites - the University of Victoria, Simon Fraser University in Burnaby, B.C., the University of Toronto, the University of Alberta in Edmonton and McGill University in Montreal - will crunch the data produced by TRIUMF.

    More than 2,500 scientists and engineers from 35 countries helped build ATLAS, and TRIUMF's contribution of parts and expertise has given Canadian scientists access to the massive machine.
    "We want our scientists to be involved in the leading project in this field in the world," Lockyer said.
    The demand to work on this "mind-bending science" has been so great that TRIUMF has been turning away eager physics students, he said.

    And while the mere mention of protons may invoke dreadful memories of high school science classes for some, the technology that powers electronics such as iPods and digital memory chips all owe a debt to physics advances such as this one, not to mention that the World Wide Web was created at CERN, the research centre hosting the particle collider.

    "It's where science has been driving us for the last two or three hundred years," Trigger said.

    "Asking basic questions: How does electricity work? How do magnets work? When you understand the connection between those different forces, suddenly you can make TVs and cellphones.

    "You put that together and you understand something deeper and something more profound."

    A number of fantastical discoveries could come from the experiments, but the crown jewel for scientists is the Higgs boson, the yet-unseen particle.

    Though the detectors can't see the Higgs, which decays into other particles in a tiny fraction of a second, physicist Rob McPherson said scientists can infer its existence by measuring how those new particles react.

    "It's different than any particle we've seen so far. If it doesn't exist, all of our theories of physics start to break," said McPherson, also with ATLAS-Canada.
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    The concern that small black holes may occur in the collider is unfounded because similar partical collisions occur in our upper atmosphere and we don't get black holes due to these

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    Physics and esoteric thought seem to be running on a covergent course more and more these days.

    As far as safety is concerned, the Swiss are probably the nation most likely to cross all the t's and dot all the i's. Though due to the very nature of the experiment, of course, the possible outcomes cannot be accurately predicted.

    It is an exciting experiment and may open the door to the transition of many sci-fi concepts into reality, once the full possibilities and applications of the re****s are known and explored.

    One wonders how long after the initial experiments it will be before those results will be made public.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Estariol View Post
    The concern that small black holes may occur in the collider is unfounded because similar partical collisions occur in our upper atmosphere and we don't get black holes due to these
    Hmm. So they would like us to believe.

    Unfortunately, this is a blatant misdirection in my opinion. The bulk of particles affecting the earth come from the sun, in the form of the 'solar wind'. This wind, as many may know, is a dense stream of protons and electrons ejected from the surface of the sun. The particle stream consists of a very thin plasma with a very low density of particles present (around 6 particles per cubic centimetre compared to an average 25,000,000,000,000,000,000 particles in the same volume of earth's atmosphere at sea level).

    There are two components to this particle stream: one 'slow', with a velocity of around 400km per second; the other 'fast', travelling at around 750km per second. The slow stream is quite turbulent and can contain quite complex particle structures. The fast stream is the much more directed of the two.

    The key points to take from this summary are
    a. the low number of particles involved and
    b. the slow speeds of any collisions which are likely to occur in the upper atmosphere.

    Compare the figures above with what will be happening at CERN:

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtaur View Post
    The world's largest scientific instrument will use unprecedented amounts of energy to shoot two clouds of protons, with trillions of the particles in each cloud, around a 27-kilometre long circular tube.

    The clouds collide at almost the speed of light [299,792km per second], blowing the protons to smithereens and - ideally - offering a treasure trove of discoveries.
    It is also important to bear in mind, that these trillions of particles will be directly focussed at CERN in a super concentrated beam...

    Not similar at all in my reality...

    The assertion that...
    Quote Originally Posted by Celtaur View Post
    ...cosmic rays have been bombarding Earth, and triggering collisions similar to those planned for the collider, since the solar system formed 4.5 billion years ago.

    And so far, Earth has survived.

    "The LHC is only going to reproduce what nature does every second, what it has been doing for billions of years," said John Ellis, a British theoretical physicist at CERN.
    ... suddenly seems a little less reassuring.

    I'm also rather sceptical that these similar collisions, even if everything else were equal, happen with the regularity that the science community would like us believe.

    As the particles in the solar wind approach a planet with a magnetic field (such as the earth), the particles are deflected by the force inherent in that field (the Lorenze force). This region causes the particles to travel around the planet rather than bombard the atmosphere or surface of the planet. Hence, we only notice the solar wind when it is strong enough (post solar flare release of a burst of particles in the direction of the earth) to create aurora and geomagnetic storms. The interaction that does occur during these periods is very impressive, with large amounts of energy released.

    These interactions, however, are in a relatively thin zone at the upper limits of the magnetosphere:
    a mix of free ions and electrons from both the solar wind and the Earth's ionosphere confined by magnetic and electric forces that are much stronger than gravity and collisions.[wikipedia]
    That statement is telling: the strength of the collisions in nature is so limited that the weak magnetic field around the planet is able to contain both the particles involved in and those generated by these ('slow' speed and, hence, low energy) collisions!

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtaur View Post
    ... the technology that powers electronics such as iPods and digital memory chips all owe a debt to physics advances such as this one, not to mention that the World Wide Web was created at CERN, the research centre hosting the particle collider.
    "Asking basic questions: How does electricity work? How do magnets work? When you understand the connection between those different forces, suddenly you can make TVs and cellphones.
    This is just fascile... but pretty much in keeping with the smoke and mirrors surrounding this whole project...

    And now, the most disturbing aspect for me personally:
    Quote Originally Posted by Celtaur View Post
    The collider could find evidence of extra dimensions,...
    Now the scientific community have gone down a road in which they have convinced themselves that any additional dimensions affecting creation are rolled up so small that we can't actually see them. On the other hand, the esoteric community know only too well other dimensions which intermingle with our own. Are the scientific and esoteric communities at yet another crossroads here? And what effect opening a high energy portal into one of these dimensions?

    Should we really be allowing the same bunch of uber-geeks who gave us the atomic bomb and nuclear power, to start messing around recreating the moments immediately after the big bang (the cause of which they can't even guess at)?

    Perhaps if there were a practical reason to do so, I may be a little more enthusiastic. Feed the poor? Halt global warming overnight? Stop the destruction of the rainforests? Cure all disease?

    Well, at least if it leads to a new generation of ipod, the risk and expense may be well worth it...

    Namaste

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