Tarot: Divination or prediction?

[AngelTarotista]

I would like to know your opinion.

The prediction, is the act of say the things before they happen, simply, a projection like the weather forecast. But divination (from ad divinum), has the implication of infallibility, because it is a divine message. Obviously the reader also have different functions in both options.

Love.

[dpa]

I would like to know your opinion.

The prediction, is the act of say the things before they happen, simply, a proyection like the weather inform. But divination (from ad divinum), has the implicance of infalibility, because it is a divine message. Obviously the reader also have different functions in both options.

Love.

Prediction can also be made by understanding past behavior patterns. Theirs that old saying that history repeats it self. Thoughts that are lingering in the past recreate past actions in different points in time. Like the tarot when doing a reading for someone you focus on the present question/situation if you know the past and understand the past situation then you can make a potential future prediction/s.

[AngelTarotista]

I guess it was a prediction vote.

I agree in tha way you can make a prediction with the vision of patterns, it help to do the job less hard :P You can make a prediction also by observing the way the client speaks or move, because you can see you are in front of a depresive or nervous or a coward person and that helps to know what is he going to do (or not to do). Some times there is not pattern, but even so you can predict by matching the situation with the personality of your client... there are so many ways to predict... The mothers have a lot of experience in predictions!

[dpa]

The mothers have a lot of experience in predictions!

When a childs born it is closer to God than any other human being can imagine. A child is born into this world with nothing but divine grace this grace is given to the mother and the father who has made the sacred commitment to bring life into this world.
A child is born with all of its chakras beating at accelerating rates after it takes its first breath, the child and its parents are one with the divine yet they may not know this divine grace is upon them.
Because mothers naturally nurture the child, feeds it, cares for it, and educates it before the father she is closer to the child and the divine. This bond of course is formed in the moment of conception for the divine gift starts from their.

but are you asking about divine predictions? knowing on a large scale like major events in the world that are predicted by prophets. I understand this would require a a sacrifice in life style that would lead the seeker to the path of spiritual truth.

[Celtaur]

I think that here is being discussed two different types (or ways) of predictions. A prediction that is an assumption of what will happen based on past actions, and the other being a prediction that is prophecy, something from the spiritual realm.

The first I think is mundane, a guess with a high probability because of repeating patterns. A person can be seen to likely do something because of where they are in their emotional development, and based on that their likely choices will cause them to create their experience.

The second being of a completely different level, and would be based on no knowledge of the persons past, their patterns of living, choices, etc. This would be a prophetic vision, like that of an oracle such as the Oracle of Delphi. This would be considered coming from a spiritual realm of seeing the future.

In Divinations such as the Tarot the second is where I see the messages coming from - the spiritual realm, the seer on the other side. I think that the first (the mundane) is not authentic in terms of divination, it's more about psychology rather than divination (connecting to the Divine). In essence a psychologist could do such "predictions" without the use of any cards or oracles, based on knowledge of patterns of human behaviour .

I think this is why self readings are not as insightful (Divination wise) because the reader is to close to their own situation. The reader knows their own psychology (to a degree) and can thus skew what the cards are saying according to their own bias. I can see how doing readings for the self can open one up to seeing aspects of their own psychology they hadn't before, and thus tarot is useful for meditations and self growth. In this way they are very insightful and useful when reading for the self. However, in respect to Divination, receiving messages from a higher place, I think it is safer for there to be distance between the reader and the querant, this allows for the message to be not as skewed by the desires of interpretation the querant would wish to receive.

If the reader is too aware of someone's personality, history, etc., and they are the type of reader that will play on those facts, rather than allowing the message to be channeled clearly, then it is like a filter, and much of the Divine message (the intention of the message the cards are displaying) could be lost.

When doing self readings, I have experience immense synchronicity in the message and the experiences thereafter that confirmed and pointed to the authenticity of the reading. In this I see there being a fine line as to what I discussed just above about biased readings, because surely there are elements of Divine message that inexplicably do get through. It is releasing the bias as much as possible, and being as honest with the self about what the cards are saying, which I find important. If the reading is too tailored to the desired outcome I think it is a disservice.

On the subject of Divination being infallible. I think that when a reading is performed it reveals the possibility from that moment, and because the universe is not static nor rigid, but malleable, the prediction can change. What is true for this moment, may not be true for the future. This begs the question - Is the future set in stone from the perspective of the Divine? It is a mystery... because the universe is living and changing from moment to moment, are all possibilities happening - is it like many new age teachers profess - that all realities are happening all at once, and we choose to slip into these realities or not, by the power of our will and it is all up to our choices - thus free will in a sea of destinies?

I don't know if we can be sure. This is why I think a tarot reading will teach us wisdom, and show us possibilities, but that these possibilities can change, and thus future readings can help reveal steps along the path.

[AngelTarotista]

I can see it is hard to you to talk without this "mistical sight"... here in my country we say "let´s get down from the broom"...

The esoterics are beliefs, but also they are rational, and as they are, they can agree with the sciences. If they don´t, they are doing the same the church did until the XIX century, that almost killed itself.

And sciences, in this case etymology, says that prediction is not the same as divination. It says too that there is not two classes of prediction, because to predict is just to say before, nothing else. Prediction is made based on many factors, they can be mystical or psychological or... i don´t know, prejudice or even whim. We can predict using the Tarot factor, and we can also use it along with these non mystical factors.

In other words, celtaur, you are wrong. You cannot just avoid the interpretation. You cannot give a message without your thoughts and experiences in the middle, it is not possible. We try to be objective, but we cannot be completely objective. That is because we call it a Tarot READING, because it is an interpretation of a code. We, as human beings, see the whole world through or own eyes, we are all the time interpreting the reality, and based in our own reading of the world we define what is real and what is not real, what is important and what isn´t. Even the sciences, are interpretations of variable and observations, of data. Is our way to communicate with the world, and we have no other, because we use our brain to do anything we do, and that is the way our brain works.

As I read one time: "we (the human being) are stupid because we think the universe works with the rules we invented".

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[Mohandas]

Greetings, my friends.

If l may be so bold as to enter the thread at this point, I believe that the topic deserves elucidation and the discussion has not completely degenerated. Please forgive me for beginning by quoting my own previous post but I feel that it has relevance here:

"I have met Tarot readers who claim to read on 'intuition' alone and some had real natural talent to be sure. But there is simply no substitute for study and unless there is a firm understanding of the symbolism on an intellectual level, coupled with what is intuited and/or received from the subconscious or indeed from on high, there can be no real science nor balanced forward advance.

One may perhaps pick up a guitar and crudely bang out a tune but how much more can be done with a true understanding of musical scales and tuning? How much more can be added by an in depth study of the works of composers and musicians down through the ages? And finally practice, without which nothing can be perfected. When the fingers are nimble and the basic scales have become second nature, only then is the musician ready to truly begin to create and the music will flow naturally through him/her.

This is a very apt metaphor for the reading of tarot. Too many times have I heard readers claim natural talent or intuitive ability and give no real importance to study. I do believe that certain people have a natural talent for tarot as much as some do for guitar and I also believe that talent can be squandered through laziness and lack of real focused effort and development."

I believe that the essential difference between 'prediction' and 'divination' is that prediction uses only one of the two necessary elements, either mental or intuitional.

With only the mental faculty being used, one may tend to alter the reading to suit any whim of the moment. If one were to open Gideon's Bible at any page and begin to read, one could possibly attach any interpretation one wishes to what is written. From the secret recipe for cabbage rolls to the art of mini-golf.

Alternately if one relies solely on intuition to decipher the meaning of a reading or message, one will arrive at only a vague conclusion, often enfeebled by sentiment, interrupted or even perverted by the dross of the unclear mind.

True 'divination' utilizes not only the rigid mental faculty of discernment but the intuitive power of the clear and calm mind, these two together receive and decipher. This may seem to be something of a paradox, how can one have a clear and quiet mind and at the same time interpret the symbolisms in a rational way using the intellect?

Envision for a moment what it would be like to communicate with a higher intelligence such as an angel or ascended master. These beings exist and function on a vibrational frequency infinitely higher than you or I. The subtlety and speed of communication far exceeds what the normal human mind can grasp.

In order for there to be something in the human mind for the ray of information from on High to reflect and become manifest in, one must built an archive of symbolisms within the human consciousness. It's like having the necessary software to run a certain program on your computer.

Each symbol having been both meditated upon as well as thoroughly thought through, finds it's natural place and order in the library of memory and may later be called upon by that ray of information which seeks to deliver a clear and exact message to the conscious human mind.

Divination works in a similar way. The archive of symbolisms having been built and the mind having achieved silence, there is a certain higher reasoning which becomes possible and with the use of a Tarot deck of seventy eight plates, the medium of communication allows for many specifics and very precise detail.

With Love
Mohandas

[Celtaur]

The first I think is mundane, a guess with a high probability because of repeating patterns. A person can be seen to likely do something because of where they are in their emotional development, and based on that their likely choices will cause them to create their experience.

The second being of a completely different level, and would be based on no knowledge of the persons past, their patterns of living, choices, etc. This would be a prophetic vision, like that of an oracle such as the Oracle of Delphi. This would be considered coming from a spiritual realm of seeing the future.

In Divinations such as the Tarot the second is where I see the messages coming from - the spiritual realm, the seer on the other side. I think that the first (the mundane) is not authentic in terms of divination, it's more about psychology rather than divination (connecting to the Divine). In essence a psychologist could do such "predictions" without the use of any cards or oracles, based on knowledge of patterns of human behaviour .

If the reader is too aware of someone's personality, history, etc., and they are the type of reader that will play on those facts, rather than allowing the message to be channeled clearly, then it is like a filter, and much of the Divine message (the intention of the message the cards are displaying) could be lost.

In this I would like to clarify because my response has been misinterpreted in (ironically) as well, which I guess supports my point that basing an interpretation on the limited knowledge of where someone is coming from with psychological clues has its faults and is open to misinterpretation. Below is further explanation for clarification.

I agree with you Mohandas.

I think "Divination" occurs as I have stated, in that the message of the cards comes from some place higher conveyed through synchronicity of the layout of the cards.

Then the "Tarot Reading" occurs when the reader interprets this Divine message which is dependant on their level of ability to interpret the messages the cards are conveying, as Mohandas has stated through learning.

The "Prediction" is usually the result of combining the Divination of the cards synchronistic layout, along with the interpretation of what those cards mean. The readers ability depends upon their knowledge of the symbolism the cards are conveying which are also combined with their intuitive abilities.

The psychological component often plays a part too, when a reader is capable of combining their learned knowledge of human psychology and imparting this into the reading.

Together all these components are common progressions of a Tarot Reading from my understanding.

Thus

• Divination
• Interpretation of the cards
• Prediction.

Or if psychology is included based on knowledge about the reader or clues of personality -

• Divination
• Interpretation of the cards
• Psychology
• Prediction

I do think psychological clues can be very important in working with the reading in an advisory manner. In which, the reader can provide advice to the querant where necessary. Thus, blending that advice with the readings messages to develop insight that is useful for the development of the querant and to assist them towards their goals and positive outcomes.


However, if a reader places psychological clues at the forefront as the catalyst for the interpretation of the cards, then I do not feel this will allow an authentic reading because it could muddle the meaning for an intended bias. Basing a readings interpretation on psychology can be a slippery slope, because it is dependent on many subjective matters such as opinion, personal experience, emotions, and level of awareness and education in psychology. If one 's subjective opinion is lacking it may alter the interpretation to a degree that the prediction has no real truth to it.

• Divination
• Psychology
• Interpretation of the cards (if overshadowed and skewed by psychology)
• Prediction (skewed by bias)

[Celtaur]

I came across the following in an article about astrology which fits into the discussion here. The title of this thread is Divination or Prediction - which I understand as questioning both what is Divination and Prediction and comparing them, looking at them from different angles, and seeing how they are related.

'Astrologers do not and cannot predict events in a person's life - fatalism of this sort would deny us free will. But through examining traits and progressions we can assess trends that are working in people's lives, rather like a weather forecast.

'It is up to the individual to use the weather forecast in the way that he or she feels best.'



'Did she "divine" that it was cold outside and you were wearing a coat?' was a typical response from male colleagues, while my husband adopted the widely used marital approach known as 'total silence'.

The quote above shows that the terms predict, forecast and divine are used interchangeably, which I think many people do.

I think with predictions, they are never set in stone, and a prediction is at best a guess of what is likely to happen. I think Divination provides an added layer of knowledge, a knowledge beyond what our psychology can deduce, and we can bring this Divine message to the physical world.

Astrology I see as a mapped science that is predictable by knowing where and when the planets will be where they shall be at any given moment and their influence and relationship to an individual. Tarot I see also as a map, but less "predictable" as the reader never knows which cards will show up until they are laid out, and form the map laid before them. This is where the Divination comes in, in the laying of the cards. I do also believe that some gifted readers are also guided with Divine messages intuitively as to which areas to focus on and address when reading the cards.

Astrology I see as being Divinely manifested as well, through the creation of the spheres, and their paths being "on purpose" and as they are for a reason (much like how the cards that are laid out in a Tarot reading, are there on purpose and synchronistically). The patterns unfold by Divine grace, they are not mere chance, they are purposeful, on time and where they are meant to be at the moment they are. In this way the messages and influences are present when the Divine intends them to be - synchronicity.