I feel lost.

[ShadowFox]

I was just reading a book on Freemasonry and Magick, entitled "The Key to Solomon's Key" by Lon Milo Duquette. The author claims to have a long experience in magical practice and ritual and knowledge of esoteric Freemasonry.

But along a point, while reading the book, something struck a chord inside of me. You see, to the author, magic is just a means of conjuring something within yourself, a part of you brain, to bind it to what you desire. His pointview of magick is entirely psychological and pretty devoid of any mystical leaning. from what I can infer.

It made me think for a bit. Are all of these things that we consider to be magick no different than from doing a session in psychotherapy or the sort? Is it all just in my brain and not hidden, in the depths of space around me? Are there really spiritual beings outside of me or just another plain part of the "psychology" of my mind?

He talks about the Goetia, and says that the demons conjured forth from it are just parts of our own psyche, and that the only consequence of not properly handling the "demon" is having no control over that part of our mind. Nothing of a supernatural feeling.

I don't know but it all seems to just be mental masturbation, from his viewpoint.

I feel that there is something more to this thing that we call reality than merely playing around with the mind, that there are things and beings and dimensions which are REAL and not just fabrications of thought. I'm experimenting around with a few different esoteric things, just to find a taste of what I have not had in so long.

I long to experience something of a sublimely spiritual nature. But right now I just feel a little lost..

[Celtaur]

It made me think for a bit. Are all of these things that we consider to be magick no different than from doing a session in psychotherapy or the sort? Is it all just in my brain and not hidden, in the depths of space around me? Are there really spiritual beings outside of me or just another plain part of the "psychology" of my mind?

This really is a great question, and something I've wondered many times myself. I tend to lean towards it being psychological "All is mind" where people convince themselves of things.

When I think of "the secret" I think of this. A lot of what "the secret" is about, to me, is people simply creating their reality by thinking positively. Thus when you think positively about yourself, about the world, about your opportunities and abilities, it's like neurolinguistic programming - you start to act different, do things differently, react to situations differently, make choices that support your way of positive thinking. Think of a scenario where you are going for a job interview for instance. If you don't believe in yourself, your abilities, or your worthiness to get that job, you will act much differently than you would if you felt you deserved it, were worthy and capable. Your persona, attitude, projection would be completely different and thus you would set yourself up to get that job opportunity so much better. Then if you didn't get it, thinking positively you'd think... "It wasn't meant to be, something better is out there for me" or something along those lines. Thinking negatively you'd think, "I was right, I'm not good enough, I knew I wasn't going to get that job." I think this could be applied to many things that "the secret" talks about. Tony Robbin's talked a lot about creating the life you want through neurolinguistic programming, "the secret" talked about it from looking at things in a more magical way, but essentially the results are the same.

I think the Neurolinguistic programming dealing with psychology puts things in a perspective that has been tested and confirmed to work, whereas people who follow the secret can sometimes be a little less organized and a bit more fluffy about the reasons behind things. I'm not saying "the secret" doesn't work, I'm just saying there are other things that work in our lives that shouldn't be discounted just because one wishes the faith perspective to be the cause. I think the secret is based more on faith, and in many cases faith can be a rollercoaster ride for many, elusive one minute, grasped onto the next. Faith can be something people cling to when they don't have any other answers and base their reality on wishing and hope, but doesn't necessarily make it true or reality. I think some people can convince themselves of realities because they want to.

I find it interesting that sometimes people who believe in something, say evil ghosts in their house, their level of fear created by their mind can cause them to lump any creeks in their house as caused by the ghosts, rather than say it's just the house naturally settling, or the heater expanding and contracting the metal grates in their home. A lot of times I think people's beliefs create their perception of reality, not necessarily the overall state of things in reality as a whole. I think people can convince themselves of things, and then attach themselves to those beliefs in ways that influences their perceptions of their experience and affects their psychology.

I do, though, think that magic can be real.

You bring up an interesting point about things coming from within. Just where does magic come from? Where does everything come from? I think it comes from this place that is invisible, deep within the core of our being, within the core of existence much deeper than our physical selves, deeper than the chemical makeups of our mind. I think that it's not only within the depths of our being, but the depths of everything that is, and everything that is not. Through our minds, our psyche, our consciousness I think we can access it in various ways, be aware of it, thus getting to that very deep esoteric level of where all things are born, the unknown void. Then through our filter of consciousness, our minds, thoughts, labels, we can interpret these things, which I think depends on our own psychology, beliefs, focus, etc.

[Tyrus]

I was just reading a book on Freemasonry and Magick, entitled "The Key to Solomon's Key" by Lon Milo Duquette. The author claims to have a long experience in magical practice and ritual and knowledge of esoteric Freemasonry.

But along a point, while reading the book, something struck a chord inside of me. You see, to the author, magic is just a means of conjuring something within yourself, a part of you brain, to bind it to what you desire. His pointview of magick is entirely psychological and pretty devoid of any mystical leaning. from what I can infer.

It made me think for a bit. Are all of these things that we consider to be magick no different than from doing a session in psychotherapy or the sort? Is it all just in my brain and not hidden, in the depths of space around me? Are there really spiritual beings outside of me or just another plain part of the "psychology" of my mind?

He talks about the Goetia, and says that the demons conjured forth from it are just parts of our own psyche, and that the only consequence of not properly handling the "demon" is having no control over that part of our mind. Nothing of a supernatural feeling.

I don't know but it all seems to just be mental masturbation, from his viewpoint.

I feel that there is something more to this thing that we call reality than merely playing around with the mind, that there are things and beings and dimensions which are REAL and not just fabrications of thought. I'm experimenting around with a few different esoteric things, just to find a taste of what I have not had in so long.

I long to experience something of a sublimely spiritual nature. But right now I just feel a little lost..

Well,

Freemasonry is based a lot on Renaissance Magic as opposed to Medieval Magic.

The main difference I have learned is that Renaissance Magic focuses on the inner mind and theosophy through theurgy.

What Duquette is saying is what I have always been taught about magic, and most of the people I have learned from would look down on the type of magic you seem to have been expecting from this book. If you ever even go them started on Wicca, you would see what I mean, they considered it childish and not magic at all.

I don't know if you are reading my blog but I am studying this topic now and I am about to post Chapter 4 today and it is all about magic and freemasonry.

If you have any questions just ask me.

[Echo]

Shadowfox, magic could be called 'applied psychology' in many ways.. magic is the art of creating change.. and most of those changes start within. In this sense, magic is working on the personality and could be reagarded as an advanced level of auto-psychotherapy.

On the other hand, it is well documented that we use only a fragment of our capabilities, so this application of magic can unlock corners of the brain we barely know exist.. and that is, in itself, fairly 'magical'.

But the mystical, spiritual side of magic is a different kettle of fish altogether. There are scientists that have studied the brain who can induce visions and quasi spiritual phenomena purely by stimulating the brain. They feel that this denies all possibility of spiritual experience.. because that is how they filter the information and choose to percieve the results. Could it not also be possible that their experiments allow hdden partes of the brain to be unlocked and see things which it normally cannot percieve?

There is, and can be, I think, NO objective proof absolute of spiritual experience.. because, no matter how convincing, some will always need and choose to explain it away in terms of their own experience. And this is the stumbling block for many.

When, if, one is given that 'proof' on a personal and intimate level, there is no need to study, question or be convinced.. because the experience is so deeply moving that it changes your whole outlook on life, the universe and everything. The desire to share these wonderful revelations runs deep and yet, we are shot down in flames by most with whom we share them as they do not, cannot have the same inner response to mere words.

[Blank Rune]

I was just reading a book on Freemasonry and Magick, entitled "The Key to Solomon's Key" by Lon Milo Duquette. The author claims to have a long experience in magical practice and ritual and knowledge of esoteric Freemasonry.

But along a point, while reading the book, something struck a chord inside of me. You see, to the author, magic is just a means of conjuring something within yourself, a part of you brain, to bind it to what you desire. His pointview of magick is entirely psychological and pretty devoid of any mystical leaning. from what I can infer.

It made me think for a bit. Are all of these things that we consider to be magick no different than from doing a session in psychotherapy or the sort? Is it all just in my brain and not hidden, in the depths of space around me? Are there really spiritual beings outside of me or just another plain part of the "psychology" of my mind?

He talks about the Goetia, and says that the demons conjured forth from it are just parts of our own psyche, and that the only consequence of not properly handling the "demon" is having no control over that part of our mind. Nothing of a supernatural feeling.

I don't know but it all seems to just be mental masturbation, from his viewpoint.

I feel that there is something more to this thing that we call reality than merely playing around with the mind, that there are things and beings and dimensions which are REAL and not just fabrications of thought. I'm experimenting around with a few different esoteric things, just to find a taste of what I have not had in so long.

I long to experience something of a sublimely spiritual nature. But right now I just feel a little lost..

Magic could be defined as the art that is supposed to control / forecast natural events, effects, or forces by invoking the supernatural. So, it is supernatural and is therefore beyond the natural world

Proof is difficult to define…we could say that “proof” is simply "evidence that is sufficient to establish knowledge of a conclusion".

Science (supposedly) proves natural phenomena by using evidence from the natural world that is sufficient to establish knowledge of a conclusion. It would then stand to reason in order to “prove” supernatural phenomena one would have to use evidence from the supernatural world that is sufficient to establish knowledge of a conclusion. In order to do that the one who proves and the one to whom the proof is offered must travel or have traveled sufficiently to / spent time in or have spent sufficient time in the supernatural world…in order to relate to that evidence. If not then there would have to at least be an accepted representation of the supernatural world derived from say photos, video, measurements, etc. The problem there is obvious.

It reminds me of a comparison I heard once...the under water world to the above water world. The mother frog has access to both, but the tadpoles (her kids) do not. One day she returns to the water and her little ones begin to ask her what it’s like up there and she says, “It is wonderful…I love sitting on a lily pad with the warm sun on my back, feeling the gentle breeze blowing…catching flies with my tongue”. The tadpoles all begin to ask questions…“What is the sun”? “What is a gentle breeze”? “What are flies”? After realizing there is no way to adequately relate those experiences to them she says, “When you grow up and loose your tails, you will know what it is like”.
It comes down to truth, doesn't it? As we are still in the Age of Pisces (the age of faith) and are therefore still in the dark we must either choose to believe or not believe. For now we must rely on our spiritual / supernatural experiences (or if one lacks them, then that one must choose to accept / reject the spiritual / supernatural experiences of others).

We are entering the Age of Aquarius (if you choose to believe it) and will soon experience the end of the darkness we have been in and the dawning of a new galactic day which brings with it the light of knowledge…then we will know.



N. _________

[ShadowFox]

Shadowfox, magic could be called 'applied psychology' in many ways.. magic is the art of creating change.. and most of those changes start within. In this sense, magic is working on the personality and could be reagarded as an advanced level of auto-psychotherapy.

On the other hand, it is well documented that we use only a fragment of our capabilities, so this application of magic can unlock corners of the brain we barely know exist.. and that is, in itself, fairly 'magical'.

It is kind of a blow to my ego, or whatever you call it, when I think about it in such terms. To me magic has always been sacred and mystical. To me with that viewpoint it seems like it all is just being put in profane terms. But maybe that is just me.

I do think that there are spiritual beings out there, and that they manipulate the roots of reality before it manifests in its physicality. I think it cheap that it all is just reduced to some form of psychology talk. People talk about "think positive" and such things but I feel that life is deprived of true spirituality when it all is shrinked down to be just psychology.

I believe it all should be much deeper and profound.

I don't know if is there any way to reconcile this. But I refuse to believe that the greatest and most sacred mysteries all boil down to some mundane concept that we should "think positive", even when sometimes obviously the opposite is what will manifest.

It calls to mind the wisdom teachings that I constantly study, trying to find clarity and truth. What comes to mind are the words of Hermes Trismegistus who says "As Above, So Below". Surely this has some part in this.

Sic luceat lux. So let the light shine.

[Celtaur]

Last night I suddenly awoke, as if realizing for the first time I was alive, here on this giant globe traveling around this giant ball of light in the middle of black nothingness. For a few moments I was mesmerized by the thought realizing that life is truly magickal and filled with awe. The psychological perspective is but one view, surely we do not know, or have all the answers, but many will cling to the ones that make sense logically to them. However, there is more to reality than we have answers for, scientists are still searching, on the same mission to understand how, why, what, just looking from different angles.

I think the magick you speak of is a part of the whole, it's like it's ingrained somewhere deep within us, and resonates as truth, it's just accessed in a different way. Qabalah teaches that we only have 5 mundane senses that can interpret the physical world, psychology would be our analytical side, the mind working through those 5 senses. However a Qabalist develops their sixth sense, which opens them up to seeing the reality beyond what the 5 senses can interpret. Once there, understanding and realizations are "above" where the scientists are looking, as scientists look within a framework accessible only by those senses, and require those answers to fit within an expected mold to be validated. The Qabalist (Kabbalist) goes to the next dimensions to seek answers, which is where the magick happens.

[Echo]

It is kind of a blow to my ego, or whatever you call it, when I think about it in such terms. To me magic has always been sacred and mystical. To me with that viewpoint it seems like it all is just being put in profane terms. But maybe that is just me.

Well, in my opinion, there is nothing more beautiful, more mystical or deeply spiritual than Life itself, stemming from the Source of All and running through every level of manifestation. So everything we see, touch, hear, think ..or imagine.. is coloured by divinity and carries the sparkle of the souls of the stars. From a sparrow to a sunset, all, I believe, is part of the same current of Life.. and that includes the most materialistic scientists, psychologists and the most insular of atheists. After all, they too have access to the wonder of thought, freedom to choose their Path and minds capable of looking deeper than the surfaces of life.. they just use a different lens with which to interpret their vision.

So for me, though many aspects of magic may be classed as applied psychology.. psychology is, in itself, the study of an aspect of the Divine Life.

I do however, believe firmly in the Lords of Light.. Beings of a higher order than ours and who are closer than we to the Source. These beings, I feel, see a wider picture than we, as if they are seeing a wider horizon from a higher level. I think our own inner souls too have this ability to see from their 'higher' position and that magical practise is, on many levels, a way to access this higher level and open the doors of communication with our own higher selves and the higher orders of Being.

Everything has hidden and half seen levels. The sun may be a simple ball of superheated gas.. of may be a God, or a symbol of Light that leads the heart. It is still the sun. It is what we see, each of us, that determines how we see it.

It doesn't matter how we label things. If one believes in a Divine Source, however one names It, then all aspects of life, from the most beautiful to the lowliest, from joy to heartbreak, from the heavens to the gutter, all are equally holy and manifestations of the Divine Life.

[Kost]

Well, to my experience, everything is of the mind. Psychology can effect reality because reality is actually consciousness. I used to do experiments where i would energetically copy ritual instruments, replacing them with common household items (windex). As long as the energetic construct remains the same the ritual works.

That doesnt make the intangible any less special though. If anything it makes it more amazing.. well more amazing than imagination. You know when i was practicing the undefinable it was always just that.. beyond comprehension... but you know when i finally started comprehending it, its awesome beyond anything i could ever have hoped to imagine and anything i can ever learn about it can only seem to further amaze me.

Classic science is so misleading.

[Celtaur]

I was just considering this again - The Hermetic Axiom "All is mind"

Thus if one is using their mind (psychological) for magick, then how does that actually take away from the validity of it. The mind in essence connecting to the universal mind, working together to create magickal experiences in reality.

I think synchronicity is an experience that points to this Mind connection.