The Second Commandment Controversy Catholic Virgin Mary, Lucifer, Jesus

[Celtaur]

What do you think the second commandment means as well as various interpretations on a lot of the concepts to follow?

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. (Exodus 20:4-6)

I have read various points of view.

The Catholic Church does not include this commandment in their list of 10 commandments, instead removes it and splits the 10th commandment into 2 (9 and 10) to fill up the list to equal 10.

I have read that the Catholics who worship the Virgin Mary (or some Catholics say they don't actually worship her), are bowing down to a false idol, such as statues of the Virgin Mary, etc. This is controversial because they say the only one to worship is Jesus as he said "No one comes to the father except through me."

Then there are those who equate Lucifer as being either the Virgin Mary, creating false miracles as in the children of fatimah, and that she is viewed as a false idol being "above" God as the Mother of God.

Albert Pike equated Lucifer and Jesus as the same as bearers, or bringers, of light, associated with the morning star, Venus. Then there are those who find blasphemy in the association of religion placing Jesus in the position Lucifer desired as being equal to, or as good as, God (one and the same / trinity).

Personally with so many conflicting views it's hard to get a grasp on how to appropriately created grounded associations - or would that be considered a graven image.

Is a graven image the use of our own imagination, and the imagination/ideas passed on to us by peers/society/family/church, etc., of what heaven/God, etc. is?

I've heard so many say we are greeted on the other side by loved ones, and I get confused, are we in the physical form, all greeting images that look like our human form while alive on earth? Is this a graven image, to imagine what the realm of heaven is to be like according to our limited 5 senses?

[XAlo321X]

I know that there are 7 Commandments but I have a question.
Are they like something a Christian has to do? Like a Muslim has to pray 5 times a day, go to Pilgrimage, fast, and give money to the poor? Or is it a different concept? [not sure "concept" is the right word but I know that you understand me somehow]

[bsbray]

The first (and imo most important) chapter of the Tao te Ching has been variously translated as:

The tao that can be told
is not the eternal Tao
The name that can be named
is not the eternal Name.

The unnamable is the eternally real.
Naming is the origin
of all particular things.

Free from desire, you realize the mystery.
Caught in desire, you see only the manifestations.

Yet mystery and manifestations
arise from the same source.
This source is called darkness.

Darkness within darkness.
The gateway to all understanding.

The Tao that can be trodden is not the enduring and
unchanging Tao. The name that can be named is not the enduring and
unchanging name.

(Conceived of as) having no name, it is the Originator of heaven
and earth; (conceived of as) having a name, it is the Mother of all
things.

Always without desire we must be found,
If its deep mystery we would sound;
But if desire always within us be,
Its outer fringe is all that we shall see.

Under these two aspects, it is really the same; but as development
takes place, it receives the different names. Together we call them
the Mystery. Where the Mystery is the deepest is the gate of all that
is subtle and wonderful.

The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao
The name that can be named is not the eternal name
The nameless is the origin of Heaven and Earth
The named is the mother of myriad things
Thus, constantly without desire, one observes its essence
Constantly with desire, one observes its manifestations
These two emerge together but differ in name
The unity is said to be the mystery
Mystery of mysteries, the door to all wonders

The Tao-Path is not the All-Tao. The Name is not the Thing named

Zen Buddhism also expresses this idea in koans:

A monk, taking a bamboo stick, said to the people,
"If you call this a stick, you fall into the trap of words,
but if you do not call it a stick, you contradict facts.
So what do you call it?"

At that time a monk in the assembly came forth. He snatched the
stick, broke it in two, and threw the pieces across the room.

Po-chang needed a master for his new monastery, so he called all his monks together
and set a pitcher before them saying: Master: `Without calling it a pitcher, tell me what is is'
Head monk: `You couldn't call it a piece of wood'
The cook walked up and kicked over the pitcher spilling the water and walked away. The cook was put in charge of the new monastery.

A master was having tea with two student monks. He tossed his fan to one and said `What
is this?' The student opened it and fanned himself. `Not bad' said the master and passed the fan to the second student who closed the fan and scratched his neck with it and then opened the fan, placed a piece of cake on it, and offered it to the master.

I think the idea Zen Buddhism and Taoism are seen trying to express here is the same one that Christianity originally embraced with the commandment about "graven images," but over time that level of consciousness has become radically corrupted.




The point is to not make a "graven image" of the transcendent by giving it a name and taking it as a name or "graven image" only. Nothing consists only of its name, given definition or "meaning." A name only refers to the thing itself, which is always beyond the words which refer to it. This is true of all words but especially those referring to transcendental concepts such as "God" or "enlightenment," which are totally beyond words to describe in any detail.


This seems like common sense but it has profound implications when remembered and incorporated into daily experience. Nothing is what it seems to us, and all the psychological baggage that comes with any word is not necessary and can easily cloud judgment and make people blind. Zen teaches becoming like a child again and returning to a "blank slate" experience of reality. Way, way in the distant past, ancient Judaism may very well have embraced and taught this as well, this commandment being its modern remains.

[brifae]

No other gods before me, it would surprise most nonpagans that most of us beleive in the one cosmic allgod, whether the gods are demigods or aspects of our personalities. And totems or graven images are okay, as long as you do not worship it, but as a representation. For example money is engraven metals/coins.

[brifae]

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. (Exodus 20:4-6)

Does not jealousy contradict the commandment and the principle of justice:
You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.
— Exodus 20:17 (NIV
But then again the bible is full of contradictions, and god can sin as much as he wants

Yes lucifer is jesus in masonic lore as the sun and illuminating one. Pike says in morals and dogma than yaweh is god but so is lucifer as one being, it is there cosmic joke on the christian followers by the illuminati vatican. There also exists a true solar christ conciousness..enlightened/ment. But venus is lucifer in the original greek, phosporous as she herald the sunrise and the sunset is visible, from darkness light. saturn restricts and frees as a higher octave of venus, the promethean archetype, the dark yet starry sky/both polarities/the tao.

[nventr]

When you worship a person or a thing, you become narrow minded, fundamentalist, or dogmatic. Everyone must believe as you do. If they don’t, that gives you permission to persecute them. Yikes! What a world that would be!!! When you worship a place, then anyone can come in and burn down the sacred forest, knock down the Temple, or take over the rock that once held the temple. We have seen that this creates continued strife through out a region.

Only the open or expanded mind, is able to comprehend the vastness of the divine and see that all is God; worthy of respect and caring.

This takes care of worshipping no images.

The thing where God says He is a jealous God, seems like it was tacked on by the Jewish people. The Jewish belief system was totally based on fear of punishment. They developed the concept of sin and the sacrifice of animals to appease an angry God.

[brifae]

yeh but it seems like the jealous god is coveting worship that belongs to other gods and cultures.
As well as the statue is not a god but a representation, a place is holy and may contain a deified land spirit or ancesters, the spirit is within the thing the thing is not the spirit.

[Grannywizard]

Remember, it doesn't have to be a golden calf to be an idol.......Today we see these huge churches that have thousands of members. These churches have built tennis and basketball courts, movie theaters, recreation buildings, and more. The money used to make everyone so comfortable at their place of worship almost gives the appearance to me of worshiping the church and what it can do for them instead of worshiping God and giving help to the least of these with the money spent. How much good works and help could this same huge church offer to those that are really needy with the donations spent for good instead of for their own use? How many of their own parishioners could have benefited with a helping hand instead of a new tennis court? Would these same thousands of people choose to worship at this church without all the trappings or would they look for something more comfortable? I'm not trying to blast big churches but I'm not sure many of them have their priorities straight.......What are they really worshiping?

[nventr]

The big churches view religion as a business, much like the priests of Jesus’ time. They provide a spectacle in an impressively large building and tell you that this is the only place to be saved. Money that is given to God goes toward things to attract more people and into the pockets of the clergy.

I have to agree with the Taoist treaties. The object of spirituality and religion is inner transformation, which is a personal journey and a lonely road. A master will be able to provide hints and tips, but no one will be able walk that journey for you.

[Celtaur]

This reminds me of a video I watched yesterday about the Vatican and money. A friend of mine once said the Catholic Church seduces members by it's rich adornments as a subliminal message of it being the best church and thus the perceived as the right church.