You, me, even God is egoistic

[redThunder]

This text is not about God; the title’s aim is to show you the grand extent of my statement/theory which I've written to make some of you consider this point of view. I'm advising all of those not able to differentiate between the author’s opinion and the author himself, to stop reading this text, because it might differ from your view of life and make you dislike me…

My statement is that every creature having free will (and a choice) will choose the egoistic path.
In simpler words: We all are egoists - in all places, at all times.

Why would I say that?
Before answering this question I’d like to compare human beings to animals.
The first step in my argumentation is to convince you, that there is no altruistic action in an animal’s life. No animal will ever do something just to make you/someone happy.
I imagine dog owners getting angry, but: no my friend, your dog has never wanted to make you happy; it has even never been happy to see you; its excitement comes from the resources you are able to provide it with if you’re there – food, taking it out, playing and so on. A female wolf protecting her offspring with her life has no choice – she was biologically programmed to act this way. No altruism there.

As we, humankind, often consider ourselves as superior to animals, and as the only ones on earth having real consciousness, one could say we can go beyond egocentricity.
Can we? Not really. I first stumbled upon this problem reading De Mello, but time after time due to observation and logic I’ve understood the grand extent of it.
I’ve been observing myself acting on this planet for a quite long time already.
As you probably know, 3rd person self observation is very constructive for one’s self development. It teaches us to control ourselves in every aspect and every life pattern and provides us with some interesting information about ourselves which is inaccessible without this exercise. But careful: this information may turn out not to be very comfortable (like in my case).
After discovering that there is much more human in me than I’d be willing to admit, I found out, that some things will never change – no matter how ‘spiritual’ I’d become.
One of those things impossible to lose is self-praise.
I’m sure a few of you know what I’m talking about. I’m talking about the feeling one gets after an ‘altruistic’ action. An example:

On your way home you see an older woman and you decide to help her to pass the street. Having the feeling that it’s still not enough, you also carry her bags home. You feel great having helped the woman and full of self-praise you refuse taking the money she wants to give you for your help. Although you missed your train home, you feel much greater than you did before… Why’s that? Because your mind rewards you for ‘altruistic’ actions and because your self assessment is much more positive than before. Now you feel great, because you are a hero – you helped the woman without taking any reward.

The point is: every single ‘non-egoistic’ action is driven by an egoistic need – often it’s a subconscious need, but it’s always there. Therefore there only exist egoistic actions.
There are two types of these. To the first type belong all those egoistic actions which make sure one feels better than before; to the second one belong all those which make sure one won’t feel worse than he does at the moment.

Some people might claim not to feel any self-praise after saving someone’s life and they did it because they felt it to be right.
So are there actions not driven by egoism?
There aren’t. Our saver knows that if he would let the person die without helping him/her, he would feel guilty and bad after it. In the moment of the decision his thought pattern goes like ‘Either I help this person, which is dangerous, or I won’t but will feel guilty to the rest of my life…’

This does not mean such egocentricity like saving lives and helping each other is to be avoided… These acts are quite needed and welcome in our society.
They belong to so called ‘higher level egoism’ whereas for example stealing or (often) lying belongs to ‘lower level egoism’.
And this is for sure: humans are the only beings capable of higher-level egoism and this makes us truly unique in the earth life system.

Following this theory, I would say, that everything beyond what we call ‘ego’ does not exist, which makes all the spiritual travelers run away from themselves. It’s possible, of course, to reduce our ego’s influence on our life; but killing our ego is suicide (because without egoism no surviving is possible) – most of the spiritual leaders’ ego’s have a small influence on them but the influence has to be there.
In the end egoism is the ultimate motivation to keep existence.

Thank you for reading; what do you think?
redThunder

[Chaigidel]

The only purpose that I can see in building up your ego is to make it so large that it is easy to cut away.
on the subject of god and ego, its really moot, because if god is the supreme being, there is nothing outside of its power, and therefore it would be beyond all titles of ego , or design.

but I see your point.

[Celtaur]

On your way home you see an older woman and you decide to help her to pass the street. Having the feeling that it’s still not enough, you also carry her bags home. You feel great having helped the woman and full of self-praise you refuse taking the money she wants to give you for your help. Although you missed your train home, you feel much greater than you did before… Why’s that? Because your mind rewards you for ‘altruistic’ actions and because your self assessment is much more positive than before. Now you feel great, because you are a hero – you helped the woman without taking any reward.

True giving comes from a much higher level of consciousness that has nothing to do with self recognition, self-gratification but from a place of realizing that the others experience. It's all about intention. It is certainly possible to give from the intention of what one gets from the act of giving, and may very well be often the case for many people, but that is not the finite possiblity of one's choices and actions, and can not be generalized to all. To say so is limiting, and the universe is infinite.

Giving from a place of true giving without expectation of anything in return, moves into the realm of selflessness. This is certainly possible, and does happen, and exists as a reality. True giving is of the highest ideals of existence, and is the cause of the universe. A microcosmic example would be that of giving birth. The moment of life entering into the world, all thoughts, labels, egoic needs, leave, and the realm of spiritual consciousness enters into a place of timelessness, in complete awe and wonder of the splendor of life and spirit.

The ego reigns for many, but it is not the highest truth, it is simply a conditioned function, and the spirit is beyond this, though it interacts with it here in the physical realm. The spirit transcends such levels of thinking.

[Haruth]

In the end egoism is the ultimate motivation to keep existence.

In the simplest sense, this is indeed true. And I agree with all the points that you have made: as far as they go, and in relation only to the physical and psychological needs of the individual.

In the spiritual sense, however, the ego represents a much greater ideal than the force that pulls you out of bed in the morning. In the spiritual sense, the ego that must be tamed is the rampant egoic force that places the I, that's the I, before the ALL (the ALL). In this respect, not only are there aspects of separation, exclusivity and value judgements of others; but there develops a deep mistrust in the motivation of others (where there is none, necessarily), a lack of just thought, and, I believe, a very narrow field of view.

In this sense, I see no dichotomy between what you have observed, and that of the spiritual path which expects the suppression of the self destructive aspects of the egoic force.

[Umbra]

I wonder why quite a big part of esoterics thinks that ego is something bad… It is, it can’t be destroyed, it can be only suppressed and even then not completely, it’s responsible for our actions almost in every aspect, its essential part of who we are and what we may become…
We should embrace our ego and provide dialog between it end our “higher-self” not begin a war…
True serenity comes from acceptation not destruction/rejection…

[Celtaur]

I wonder why quite a big part of esoterics thinks that ego is something bad… It is, it can’t be destroyed, it can be only suppressed and even then not completely, it’s responsible for our actions almost in every aspect, its essential part of who we are and what we may become…
We should embrace our ego and provide dialog between it end our “higher-self” not begin a war…
True serenity comes from acceptation not destruction/rejection…

There are many aspects of ego, and many definitions. I think what those who are working towards releasing egoic tendencies are actualizing the aspects of ego that create a separation of one's conscious awareness from higher spiritual truths and awakening.

Other aspects that are labeled egoic are necessary for the evolution of the spirit through the experience of the physical. It is in realizing the aspects that do not serve you or others, but do harm, that is what those in the esoteric field release consciously to assist in their evolution.

I would say that realizing the ego is present and working with it, releasing aspects that do not serve ourselves or others, is what those in the metaphysical, esoteric community do. It is about becoming conscious of one's own choices and actions and working with those traits to move beyond aspects that lower oneself to "automatic" behaviors that are dis-serving, and move into choices and actions here in the physical world that support the evolution of one's consciousness.

if that is your way to peace so be it, others find it necessary to "die before death" so to speak and sacrifice the identity they cling too before death strips it from them.

It is merely a preparation for the inevitable nothingness that will follow our deaths.

and you are yours to shape, you may feel and act however you wish, but it is the world you must accept and the forces of "god" or nature , or physics however you wish to see it it must be accepted but you and your ego are yours to reject destroy or embelish.

I think what is always important to see is when considering another's perceptions is to realize that one's own interpretation and definition associated with their words is one's own and not theirs. It is important to come from a place of being open to learning another's perceptions. I'm glad we have such a place to learn from one another's views that allow us to see things from various points of view.

[Haruth]

We should embrace our ego and provide dialog between it end our “higher-self” not begin a war…
True serenity comes from acceptation not destruction/rejection…

I think this is a deep understanding.

The goal is not total suppression of the ego, however, though this may be a common misunderstanding. I feel the goal is more about recognising the undesirable aspects of ego, and avoiding the pitfalls that these open before us; whilst actively nurturing the positive aspects and embracing the rewards of the directed self.

Or, much better put...

It is in realizing the aspects that do not serve you or others, but do harm, that is what those in the esoteric field release consciously to assist in their evolution.

I hate it when I read the next post and it says what I meant in a much better way...

<Must spend more time working with that aspect of ego...>

[Chaigidel]

[I believe] Death must be accepted for what it is, and faced without illusion, [we] will end without fail, as do all things as will all things, this is not a mystery but a question of acceptance, and there is no path around it.

and no variation in its result.

...I just wanted to add that it is the reason that a release of the ego is a good thing, maybe not for all people but for some certainly.

[redThunder]

Celtaur -
I really don’t want to sound pessimistic, but ‘life giving’ can be a very ecstatic experience or it can be painful and awful. Or what did you mean?
Giving as cause of universe? Do you mean it literally, or is it a metaphor?
Is ‘true giving’ something you were able to experience? Or selflessness?
Assuming you are right, what is the motivation for this selfless giving?

Sorry for asking so many questions, but reading your replay, I have the feeling you use many wonderful poetry-like metaphors which are very pleasant to read, but which aren’t really convenient or precisely augmented...
Don’t get me wrong - kind of feel what you are talking about, but the left side of my brain wants everything to be explained (which I’m all right with ).

Haruth -
Smart guy. I’ve taken my time to read some posts of yours on this forum (as a new member) and I have to admit I enjoyed them a lot
Back to topic, you differentiate between the ego and the spiritual meaning of ego, which I can live with. It’s true that we have to fight against some human habits to develop; but fighting our ego is kind of illogical because it’s the ego which makes us fight...
Still I’d like to know if you believe altruism to exist?

Umbra, Haruth, Celtaur -
I agree with your second/last replies

Chaigidel -
Firstly, I have the feeling that you trust too much your limited human perception which make you think that everything is finite only because you’ve never experienced anything different than that.
You speak of illusion, but the real illusion we have to deal with is the illusion of finiteness.
Of course – we in our present form are very limited; but what makes you think that the rest of the world also is?

[Haruth]

I’d like to know if you believe altruism to exist?

I believe it does, yes.

I also believe that it is far less common in today's society than it was, say even as little as fifty years ago. There was something about communal living which engendered a freely altruistic outlook on life. Today, with modern housing stocks ("1 housing unit = 1 family unit") we have been removed completely from any sense of community. Not just from family, but also neighbours (who until recently, were almost certainly also family).

My wife, brought up in a close knit community within a slum area, tells a story regarding her mother in the late 40's. Crossing a bridge, her mother stopped and gave a sixpence to a beggar. My wife, about 6 at the time, was quite shocked that her mother should do so, and queried whether her mother would have given the beggar the money if it had been her last sixpence. The answer, "It was my last sixpence", no doubt had a strong impact on her future outlook and development. Indeed, there are many folk histories which relate the 'taking in' of displaced relatives, strangers and wanderers; for no gain, only the opportunity to help another less capable or well off as oneself.

In biological terms, the idea of altruism serves many purposes. I think it is too easy to forget that everything we as humans do, has its root in the biological functioning of our bodies. In the biological sense, altruism can be defined as an instinctive behaviour, detrimental or without reproductive benefit to the individual, but favouring the survival or spread of that individual's genes, as by benefitting its relatives. Cases in point are the manner in which subordinate members of a pack will forego mating to care for a dominant members young, a warning cry which alerts a group to the presence of a predator whilst revealing the position of the altruistic animal to that predator, or simply foraging on behalf of the group.

With this in mind, I can not see why the human animal would not be capable of much greater acts of selfless giving. Perhaps it is only possible in a society much more oriented to community and less on the individual. I certainly believe that those most capable of a truly altruistic act, have already recognised the folly inherent in the cult of self.

Namaste